CVS difference for ai05s/ai05-0115-1.txt

Differences between 1.2 and version 1.3
Log of other versions for file ai05s/ai05-0115-1.txt

--- ai05s/ai05-0115-1.txt	2008/10/17 04:14:51	1.2
+++ ai05s/ai05-0115-1.txt	2008/11/25 02:05:25	1.3
@@ -1,4 +1,5 @@
-!standard 4.3.1(14)                                         08-10-16  AI05-0115-1/02
+!standard 4.3.1(13)                                         08-11-24  AI05-0115-1/03
+!standard 4.3.1(14)
 !standard 4.3.2(5/2)
 !class binding interpretation 08-10-15
 !status work item 08-10-15
@@ -69,63 +70,74 @@
 
 !wording
 
-Modify 4.3.1(14):
+Add after 4.3.1(13):
 
-If the type of a record_aggregate is a record extension, then it shall be a
-descendant of a record type, through one or more record extensions (and no
-private extensions). {Moreover, for each of those record extensions R, there
-shall exist some place in the immediate scope of the type R where the parent
-type of R is a record or record extension.}
-
-AARM Note:
-
-The last sentence prevents aggregates where not all of the components are
-visible, even though all of the types are full views at the point of the
-aggregate. For example:
+   Static Semantics
 
-    package Pak1 is
-        type T1 is tagged private;
+  A view of a specific tagged type T is said to "have known components"
+  if it is not a partial view, nor a descendant of a type which
+  does not have known components. Given a specific tagged type T
+  having an ancestor type A, a view of T is said to "extend A with known
+  components" if T is A, or if T is a record extension of A, or if
+  T is a record extension of type B, and B extends A with known components.
+
+  AARM Note:
+  Having known components and extending an ancestor type A with known
+  components are characteristics of the type T (see 7.3 and 7.3.1). That
+  means that these properties can be added as more information becomes
+  available about an ancestor type, and thus whether or not a type
+  has known components depends on its view. 
+
+  Consider the following example:
+
+    package Pkg1 is
+      type T1 is tagged private
+      -- T1 does not have known components here.
     private
-        type T1 is tagged record
-            C1 : Integer;
-        end record;
-    end Pak1;
-
-    with Pak1;
-    package Pak2 is
-        type T2 is new Pak1.T1 with record
-            C2 : Integer;
-        end record;
-    end Pak2;
-
-    with Pak2;
-    package Pak1.Pak3 is
-        type T3 is new Pak2.T2 with record
-            C3 : Integer;
-        end record;
-        procedure Foo;
-    end Pak1.Pak3;
-
-    package body Pak1.Pak3 is
-
-        procedure Foo is
-            R : T3;
-        begin
-            R := (others => 4);                   -- (Illegal.)
-        end Foo;
-
-    end Pak1.Pak3;
-
-By requiring that all of the parent types are record types or record extensions
-at the point of the derivation, we avoid this problem.
+      type T1 is tagged null record;
+      -- T1 has known components here.
+    end Pkg1;
+
+    package Pkg1.Pkg2 is
+      type T2 is new Pkg1.T1 with null record;
+      -- T2 does not have known components here because
+      -- T1 does not have known components (as seen from
+      -- here).
+    private
+      -- T2 has known components here.
+    end Pkg2;
 
-Modify 4.3.2(5/2):
+    with Pkg1.Pkg2;
+    package body Pkg1 is  
+       type T3 is new Pkg2.T2 with null record;
+       -- T3 does not have known components here because T2
+       -- does not have known components (as seen from here)
+       -- even though T1 does (as seen from here).
+    end Pkg1; 
+  
+
+Replace 4.3.1(14):
+
+  The type of a record aggregate shall have known components.
+
+Replace the last sentence of 4.3.2(5/2):
+
+  The type of the extension_aggregate shall be derived from the type
+  of the ancestor_part. The type of the extension aggregate shall
+  extend the type of the ancestor_part with known components.
+
+
+Modify 7.3(15):.
+In the sentence
+  Moreover, within the scope of the declaration of the full view, the
+  characteristics of the type are determined by the full view; in particular,
+  within its scope, the full view determines the classes that include the
+  type, which components, entries, and protected subprograms are visible,
+  what attributes and other predefined operations are allowed, [and ]whether
+  the first subtype is static{, whether the type has known components,
+  and (for any ancestor type A of the given type) whether the type
+  extends A with known components}. 
 
-... The type of the extension_aggregate shall be derived from the type of
-the ancestor_part, through one or more record extensions (and no private
-extensions). {Moreover, for each of those record extensions R,
-there shall exist some place in the immediate scope of the type R where
-the parent type pf R is a record or record extension.}
 
 !discussion
 
@@ -134,61 +146,83 @@
 then the same rule ought to apply to the equivalent aggregate. Thus all of the
 example aggregates are illegal.
 
-The best way to fix this is to fix 4.3.1(14) to make it clear that what matters
-whether the parent type was a partial view at the point of the derivation (whether
-the parent type is a partial view at the point of the aggregate is irrelevant).
+We tried a number of different wording attempts, but it became clear that any
+attempt to create wording that didn't leverage the existing characteristics
+rules was doomed to failure. Thus we defined some new characteristics that
+make it clear whether an aggregate is legal.
 
 Note that a similar case can be constructed for extension aggregates: Make type T1
 in the example derived from a root type, then aggregates like:
    R := (Root with C1 => 1, C2 => 2, C3 => 3);     -- (Illegal.) 
    R := (Root with C2 => 2, C3 => 3, others => 1); -- (Illegal.)
    R := (Root with others => 4);                   -- (Illegal.)
+
+An alternative way to solve this problem would be to allow the components to be
+visible in cases like those given in the question. Essetially, characteristics
+could be inherited from any ancestor, not just the parent. In that case, no
+legality rule change would be needed here. But conflicting components would have
+to be illegal when a type is declared, so there is some incompatibility. And
+it would likely be a fairly large change to compilers (even if it would be more
+usable).
 
-[Editor's Note: I'm not completely convinced that there isn't some weird
-case where the components get declared in the body. There are such cases for
-operations that are declared in nested packages, but I *think* that components
-don't have any such cases because a nested package can't add any components to
-an outer type. Steve Baird may prove me wrong...
-
-The proposed wording is completely opaque. I originally proposed
-
-  Moreover, the parent type of each of those record extensions
-  shall have been a record type or record extension at the point of the record
-  extension declaration.
-
-However, Steve Baird pointed out that this wording doesn't work for
-a record extension declared in the visible part of a child unit if the aggregate
-is given in the body of that unit -- in that case there is no problem, but this
-wording would make that illegal.
-
-I've attempted to patch this up by echoing the words of 7.3. But I'm not sure
-that that actually works, either. And it is completely inpenatrable: it doesn't
-explain the actual problem in any way.
-
-An alternative way of wording this would simply require that all
-components are visible. However, that doesn't work, because that would allow
-aggregates if the hidden parent type was a null record. That would be privacy
-breaking, as if any components were added later, the aggregate would then become
-illegal.
-
-One could try to work around that with wording like:
-
-A record_aggregate is illegal if any possible components of the composite value
-defined by the type of the aggregate are not visible or not declared.
-
-It's not clear that this is any actual improvement; it's pretty vague about
-"possible components". It also doesn't work for the extension
-aggregate case, where we only need to consider a subset of the components.
-
-A last way to solve this problem would be to allow the components to be visible
-in cases like those given in the question. In that case, no legality rule would
-be needed here. But conflicting components would have to be illegal when a type
-is declared, so there is some incompatibility. [Such a rule also would eliminate
-the issue raised in an AI that hasn't been written yet if it also applied to
-inherited subprograms. But that would be more incompatible.]
+!example
 
-End Editor's Note.]
+The following example includes the interesting cases identified by discussion
+on this topic.
 
+    package Pkg1 is
+       type T1 is tagged private; -- Does not have known discriminants (partial view).
+    private
+       type T1 is tagged record C1 : Integer; end record;
+           -- Does have known discriminants
+    end Pkg1;
+ 
+    package Pkg1.Pkg2 is -- Private case
+       type T2 is new Pkg1.T1 with private;
+                 -- Does not have known discriminants (partial view and parent type).
+       X1 : T2 := (others => 1); -- Illegal.
+    private
+       type T2 is new Pkg1.T1 with record C2 : Integer; end record;
+                 -- Does have known discriminants (derived from type that has them).
+       X2 : T2 := (C1 | C2 => 1); -- Legal.
+    end Pkg1.Pkg2;
+
+    package Pkg1.Pkg3 is -- Record case
+       type T3 is new Pkg1.T1 with record C2 : Integer; end record;
+                 -- Does not have known discriminants (parent type)
+       X1 : T3 := (others => 1); -- Illegal.
+    private
+       -- T3 gets known discriminants here (an additional characteristic).
+       X2 : T3 := (C1 | C2 => 1); -- Legal.
+    end Pkg1.Pkg3;
+ 
+    with Pkg1.Pkg2, Pkg1.Pkg3;
+    package body Pkg1 is
+       type T4 is new Pkg2.T2 with record C1 : Integer; end record;
+            -- T2 does not have a (visible) C1 component.
+            -- T4 does not have known discriminants (parent type).
+       X3 : T4 := (C1 => 1, C2 => 2); -- Illegal.
+       X4 : T4 := (others => 1); -- Illegal.
+
+       type T5 is new Pkg3.T3 with record C3 : Integer; end record;
+            -- T3 does not have a (visible) C1 component. The fact that one is declared in
+            -- in the private part is irrelevant.
+            -- T5 does not have known discriminants (parent type).
+       X5 : T5 := (C3 => 1, C2 => 2, C1 => 1); -- Illegal.
+       X6 : T5 := (C2 => 2, others => 1); -- Illegal.
+
+       type T6 is new Pkg3.T3 with record C1 : Integer; end record;
+            -- Legal with the current rules, as C1 never becomes visible for this type.
+            -- T6 does not have known discriminants (parent type)
+       X7 : T6 := (C1 => 1, C2 => 2); -- Illegal.
+       X8 : T6 := (C2 => 2, others => 1); -- Illegal.
+
+     end Pkg1;
+
+Note that X5 through X8 are not illegal by the Ada 2005 rules.
+
+--!corrigendum 4.3.1(13)
+
 !corrigendum 4.3.1(14)
 
 @drepl
@@ -196,11 +230,7 @@
 descendant of a record type, through one or more record extensions (and no
 private extensions).
 @dby
-If the type of a @fa<record_aggregate> is a record extension, then it shall be a
-descendant of a record type, through one or more record extensions (and no
-private extensions). Moreover, for each of those record extensions @i<R>,
-there shall exist some place in the immediate scope of the type @i<R> where the
-parent type of @i<R> is a record or record extension.
+The type of a record aggregate shall have known components.
 
 !corrigendum 4.3.2(5/2)
 
@@ -213,12 +243,12 @@
 @dby
 If the @fa<ancestor_part> is a @fa<subtype_mark>, it shall denote a specific
 tagged subtype. If the @fa<ancestor_part> is an @fa<expression>, it shall
-not be dynamically tagged. The type of the @fa<extension_aggregate> shall
-be derived from the type of the @fa<ancestor_part>, through one or more
-record extensions (and no private extensions). Moreover, for each of those
-record extensions @i<R>, there shall exist some place in the immediate
-scope of the type @i<R> where the parent type of @i<R> is a record or record
-extension.
+not be dynamically tagged. The type of the @fa<extension_aggregate>
+shall be derived from the type of the @fa<ancestor_part>. The type of the
+extension aggregate shall extend the type of the @fa<ancestor_part>
+with known components.
+
+--!corrigendum 7.3(15)
 
 !ACATS Test
 
@@ -433,5 +463,787 @@
 
 ****************************************************************
 
+And the discussion continues after another attempt at wording this AI.
+Following is a summary of a private e-mail discussion between Steve Baird,
+Tucker Taft, and Randy Brukardt in October 2008 [discussing version /02
+of this AI].
+
+Tucker:
+
+This is actually the kind of wording I would presume we need, because it is
+based on the "some place in the immediate scope" style of wording, which is
+how the other rules are defined.
+
+I suppose I find it a bit odd to say that some place...
+it "is" a record or record extension.  I think what we mean is that it's full
+definition is visible at some place ...
+
+Randy:
+
+Such a rewording doesn't quite work, because nothing says that the parent
+has to be a private type. Well, I guess it does, given that full types are
+defined for all types, but it would be misleading as most readers would
+think it only applies to private types. Especially as the existing wording
+never talks about full types, preferring to talk about records and record
+extensions instead. It would be weird to change horses in midstream, so to
+speak. One could argue that the existing wording would be better if it
+talked about full types rather than "records and record extensions", but
+that is a different deal.
+
+Steve:
+
+We want my example (above) to be accepted and this accomplishes that.
+If you delete the word "private" from package Parent.Child, thereby moving the
+declaration of X2 out of the private part of Parent.Child, we want that modified
+version of the example to be rejected. It seems like your idea does not accomplish
+that. The fact that there exists some place where all of the record components
+are visible should not really matter very much if the aggregate in question
+occurs somewhere other than that place.
+
+Could you solve the problem of positional aggregates by somehow tying the legality
+of a positional aggregate to the legality of an equivalent named-notation
+aggregate?
+
+Tucker:
+
+This clearly seems to be a visibility issue, and it seems that the full definitions
+of the record type and any extensions need to be visible at the point of the
+aggregate. This is in addition to the full definition of the parent type of each
+record extension being visible somewhere within the immediate scope of that
+extension. I think the first part is probably adequately covered by the existing
+wording, and the second part is additional. Your initial example violates the
+second part, and if you move the aggregate above the "private" it violates the
+first part (and the existing wording).
+
+Randy:
+
+Right. The new wording is in addition to the existing wording, and surely the
+revised example violates the existing wording (because the aggregate has a private
+extension in its derivation chain). I worried about that quite a bit, but I wasn't
+able to find any case where one or the other didn't catch the problem.
+
+Steve:
+
+>   Moreover, for each of those record extensions R, there shall
+>   exist some place in the immediate scope of the type R where
+>   the parent type of R is a record or record extension.
+
+This wording, at least as I interpreted it, seemed to suggest that the existence
+or nonexistence of a region in which certain characteristics of a derived type
+are visible might somehow affect the legality of certain aggregates outside of
+this region.
+
+Randy:
+
+Yes, and that was purely intentional. Any case where that would matter is already
+illegal by the existing rule (I *think*), so I opted for the simpler wording rather
+than trying to complicate it with the position of the aggregate.
+
+Steve:
+
+Given that 7.3.1(3/3) only says that the characteristics "become 
+visible" and determining the region in which this visibility applies 
+is left as an exercise for the reader, I suppose Randy was only 
+following precedent.
+
+Randy:
+
+That's not what I was thinking. I really was expecting the rule to apply anywhere
+to that particular type, it just doesn't matter when you are outside of the region
+of visibility because the aggregate is already illegal in that case.
+
+The question is whether you, our designated weird-case finder, can find a case that
+is legal by the existing rule *and* legal by this rule, where the aggregate is
+outside of the region of visibility of the parent type (but that there exists some
+place where the parent type is visible in the immediate scope). In that case this
+rule would be wrong. I don't know of any such case, and it seems impossible, as
+being outside of the region of visibility of the parent would seem to automatically
+trigger the existing rule.
+
+Steve:
+
+I don't think this wording addition handles the following case:
+
+   package Pkg1 is
+      type T1 is tagged private;
+   private
+      type T1 is tagged null record;
+   end Pkg1;
+
+   package Pkg1.Pkg2 is
+      type T2 is new Pkg1.T1 with record F1 : Integer; end record;
+   private
+      X2 : T2 := (F1 => 1); -- legal
+   end Pkg2;
+
+   with Pkg1.Pkg2;
+   package body Pkg1 is
+      type T3 is new Pkg2.T2 with record F2 : Integer; end record;
+
+      X3 : T3 := (F1 => 1, F2 => 2); -- should be illegal
+   end Pkg1;
+
+To really nail this down and handle the case that you mentioned about a
+private tagged type that is implemented as a null record, you might need to
+define a new characteristic, something like 'A type that is derived (directly
+or indirectly) from a tagged private type or from a private extension "has
+unknown components"'. A legality rule could then prohibit a record aggregate
+of a type that has unknown components.
+
+As Tuck point out, you can really force the issue by declaring multiple
+components with the same name. It is intended that any type that has (or is
+only a component declaration away from legally having) multiple components
+with the same name must "have unknown components".
+
+Randy:
+
+Yes, you are right. So it looks like all of the visibility crap will have to
+be dragged into this wording.
+
+I don't think your "unknown components" solution works at all. It's exactly
+equivalent to my one of my original attempts and those didn't work.
+
+The problem is that it isn't clear where this property would be calculated.
+If you calculate it at the point of the declaration of each type, then it is
+exactly equivalent to the first wording that I proposed and which you pointed
+out doesn't work.
+
+If you say that it is calculated at the point of the aggregate, then it is
+exactly equivalent to the existing wording, and we already know *that*
+doesn't work. (In Adam's original example, there are no private types at the
+point of the aggregate: everything has a full view visible.)
+
+If you make the claim that it is calculated in some other way, well there
+better be a lot more wording explaining what that way is! Visibility definitely
+needs to be involved here, but I don't see precisely how. As you previously
+have pointed out, it changes with the region that you are in.
+
+> It is intended that any type that has (or is only a component declaration
+> away from legally having) multiple components with the same name must
+> "have unknown components".
+
+OK, but how do you describe that? I've already tried (twice) without any
+success. The above description is a goal, not a language rule. No one could
+remotely figure out what this means in practice.
+
+So I'd suggest proposing some wording that actually works (don't worry about
+how complicated) and we'll go from there.
+
+Tucker:
+
+T2 is a record extension in this new example, so this aggregate should be
+legal. Steve, why do you think it should be illegal? There is no way that
+in this example T1 could have a component named "F1" or "F2" so what is the
+danger?
+
+Steve:
+
+The set of components that T2 inherits from T1 is fixed at the point of T2's
+derivation and is independent of T1's completion. If we modified the private
+part of Pkg1 to add a Foo component to T1, T2 (as viewed from outside of the
+intersection of the immediate scopes of T1 and T2) would still would not
+have a Foo component. Thus, T3 (which is declared outside of the aforementioned
+intersection) would not inherit a Foo component from T2.
+
+Ignoring discriminated types for the moment, you never want to allow an aggregate
+of a type whose set of components (as defined in the static semantics) does not
+include all of the components of each of its ancestors.
+
+Do you agree that this example should be illegal if T1's completion included
+at least one component? I'm talking about desirability here and odd dynamic
+semantics if this were allowed, not about how the present wording of the manual
+handles this case.
+
+If so, then are you saying that completing T1 as a null record should make a
+difference?
+
+For another argument, let's look at what would happen if T1 were completed as
+   type T1 is record F2 : Float; end record;
+
+T2 (as viewed from outside of Pkg2) has no F2 component.
+Thus T3 has no inherited F2 component.
+Thus 8.3(26/2)'s statement that "a type extension is illegal if somewhere within
+its immediate scope it has two visible components with the same name" does not
+apply.
+
+Do you really want to allow this case?
+
+Tucker:
+
+I don't agree with your statement that the set of components of T2 is fixed at
+the point of T2's derivation.  When the additional characteristics of T1 become
+visible, then T2 acquires those characteristics as well, namely having any
+components that T1 has. I believe 7.3.1(4) and 7.3(15) make this relatively clear:
+
+Paragraph 7.3.1(4/1) says:
+
+    The corresponding rule applies to a type defined by a
+    derived_type_definition, if there is a place immediately
+    within the declarative region in which the type is declared
+    where additional characteristics of its parent type become
+    visible.
+
+Paragraph 7.3(15) says:
+
+   ... the *characteristics* of the type are ...
+   the classes that include the type, which components,
+   entries, and protected subprograms are visible...
+
+If we don't agree that T2 inherits the components of T1 at the point the full view
+of T1 becomes visible, then we have bigger problems...
+
+Perhaps what you mean by your statement is that the set of components inherited by
+T3 *from* T2 is fixed, even though T2 goes on to inherit more components after
+getting into the private part.
+
+So I now understand how these issues are linked. Should a type inherit components
+from its *grandparent* if its parent eventually inherits those components, even
+though we can't "see" the place where that occurs?
+
+It seems more flexible, and still not privacy breaking, to say that *yes*, a type T
+can inherit characteristics from *any* ancestor so long as all intermediate ancestors
+inherit those characteristics eventually. The type T inherits those characteristics
+if and when they become visible immediately within the declarative region in which T
+is declared. So you can never end up with "more" components than your parent will
+eventually have, but you can end up with more components than are visible in your
+parent to "you." I suppose we could go one step further and say that the components
+of a type are visible even if we have no visibility on the place where they become
+visible, so long as we "know" they will eventually become visible.
+
+That seems friendliest, as it means you can refer to any components you know they have,
+so long as they will eventually know they have it as well.
+
+I wonder how disruptive this would be for your average Ada compiler?
+
+Steve:
+
+You are right, I was speaking imprecisely.
+I said:
+   The set of components that T2 inherits from T1 is fixed at the
+   point of T2's derivation and is independent of T1's completion.
+   If we modified the private part of Pkg1 to add a Foo component to T1,
+   T2 (as viewed from outside of the intersection of the immediate
+   scopes of T1 and T2) would still would not have a Foo component.
+
+When I said "fixed at the the point of T2's derivation", I should have
+repeated the parenthetical comment that is in the second sentence:
+   (as viewed from outside of the intersection of the immediate
+    scopes of T1 and T2)
+
+I don't think this affects the validity of the point I was trying to make.
+
+> I wonder how disruptive this would be for your average Ada
+> compiler?
+
+I agree, this might be a reasonable model but it definitely
+is a change. Rational implements most of this stuff via
+a scheme that was implemented by one Bob Duff.
+I think that the change that you are proposing would require
+a substantial redesign of this part of the compiler.
+
+On the other hand, this could be justified if the present
+rules are shown to be seriously broken.
+
+If you modify my example as I described previously by giving T1
+a component named F2, then 8.3(26/2)'s statement that "a type
+extension is illegal if somewhere within its immediate scope it has
+two visible components with the same name" does not
+apply because T3 does not inherit a visible F2 component
+from T2. Is this a problem? I'm trying to decide if there
+are any issues with formal derived types, view conversions,
+etc. It seems odd that given
+    X : T3,
+, X.F2 and T1 (X).F2 would denote different components.
+
+Randy:
+
+Well, it would be no problem for Janus/Ada, because we never got
+multiple components with the same name to work (and thus have that
+capability disabled). We'd just have to add some code to toggle the
+visibility bit on the component. Not that that proves anything (and
+that might be harder than it seems).
+
+The model Tucker is proposing here is essentially the same as what I
+was informally describing "dropping the hidden components rule".
+Specifically, we would reverse the Ramification of AI95-00157.
+AI95-00150 already covers the case of two components with the same name
+becoming visible at the same time (which I was worried about), so it
+simply (if such a thing is possible) would require making the
+inheritance for components apply to all ancestors.
+
+One wonders if something similar should be done for operations (which
+is the question Adam asked Oct 3, and will have its own AI).
+
+> If you modify my example as I described previously by giving T1 a 
+> component named F2 (Randy: F is for "Field"), then 8.3(26/2)'s 
+> statement that "a type extension is illegal if somewhere within its 
+> immediate scope it has two visible components with the same name" does 
+> not apply because T3 does not inherit a visible F2 component from T2. 
+> Is this a problem? I'm trying to decide if there are any issues with 
+> formal derived types, view conversions, etc. It seems odd that given
+>     X : T3,
+> , X.F2 and T1 (X).F2 would denote different components.
+
+But that is not new. We in fact use such type conversions in Claw to
+access root-level components. (We never overlap the names because of
+the aformentioned Janus/Ada limitations, but a user could do that if
+using some other compiler.)
+
+In my extended example:
+
+    package Pkg1 is
+       type T1 is tagged private;
+    private
+       type T1 is tagged record C1 : Integer; end record;
+    end Pkg1;
+ 
+    package Pkg1.Pkg2 is -- Private case
+       type T2 is new Pkg1.T1 with private;
+       X1 : T2 := (others => 1); -- Illegal by the existing rule.
+    private
+       type T2 is new Pkg1.T1 with record C2 : Integer; end record;
+       X2 : T2 := (C1 | C2 => 1); -- Legal (one hopes)
+    end Pkg1.Pkg2;
+
+    package Pkg1.Pkg3 is -- Record case
+       type T3 is new Pkg1.T1 with record C2 : Integer; end record;
+       X1 : T3 := (others => 1); -- Illegal by the existing rule.
+    private
+       X2 : T3 := (C1 | C2 => 1); -- Legal (one hopes)
+    end Pkg1.Pkg3;
+ 
+    with Pkg1.Pkg2, Pkg1.Pkg3;
+    package body Pkg1 is
+       type T4 is new Pkg2.T2 with record C1 : Integer; end record;
+            -- T2 does not have a (visible) C1 component.
+       X3 : T4 := (C1 => 1, C2 => 2); -- Illegal by the existing rule.
+       X4 : T4 := (others => 1); -- Illegal by the existing rule.
+
+       type T5 is new Pkg3.T3 with record C3 : Integer; end record;
+            -- T3 does not have a (visible) C1 component. The fact that one is declared in
+            -- in the private part is irrelevant.
+       X5 : T5 := (C3 => 1, C2 => 2, C1 => 1); -- Should be illegal as C1 is missing.
+       X6 : T5 := (C2 => 2, others => 1); -- Should be illegal as don't have
+                                          -- visibility on C1.
+
+       type T6 is new Pkg3.T3 with record C1 : Integer; end record;
+            -- Legal with the current rules, as C1 never becomes visible for this type.
+       X7 : T6 := (C1 => 1, C2 => 2); -- Should be illegal as one of the C1's
+                                      -- is missing.
+       X8 : T6 := (C2 => 2, others => 1); -- Should be illegal as don't have visibility
+                                          -- on the original C1.
+
+     end Pkg1;
+
+This example shows what makes this so devilishly complex. It doesn't even
+necessarily depend on the types; the component can be hidden even when the
+type is not if it appears later in the declarative region of the type.
+
+If we declared XA : T4; (no aggregate), then XA.C1 is the T4 C1, and T1(XA).C1 is
+the T1 C1. Nothing new here (but I agree it is weird).
+
+If we were to adopt a rule such as the one Tucker described, then T5 would
+inherit a C1 component; X5 and X6 would be legal (all of the components are
+visible). In addition, T4 and T6 would be illegal by 8.3(26/2), so we don't
+have to worry about the name clash. In the case of X3 and X4, they would
+remain illegal by the existing rule.
+
+Effectively, we either make a big change in the inheritance of components
+or we make a big, complex legality rule for aggregates (one that we can't
+even describe how it works).
+
+Steve:
+
+It seems clear to me that changing the visibility rules for inherited components
+is a substantially bigger change than adding a rule prohibiting aggregates
+in certain cases.
+
+I would think that we would only go with the former alternative if we really
+can't come up with wording for the aggregate rule (or if the former
+alternative somehow fixes some other problems as well).
+
+Randy:
+
+This is so hard to define because this is not a property of any type alone.
+It is a property of all of the following:
+  (1) The location the aggregate is declared;
+  (2) The location where the parent type is declared (vis/priv;
+                child/sibling/parent/unrelated);
+  (3) Whether or not the parent type has an explicit partial view;
+  (4) The location where the extension is declared (vis/priv;
+                child/sibling/parent/unrelated);
+  (5) Whether or not the extension has an explicit partial view.
+  (6) The 2-5 repeated for every extension in the derivation chain.
+
+Obviously, some of the combinations are ruled out by the existing rule,
+but nowhere near enough.
+
+Steve:
+
+I'll give it a shot.
+
+In 4.3.1 we add a static semantics section ahead of the existing legality
+section which contains:
+
+  A specific tagged type T is said to "have hidden components"
+  if it is a tagged private type, a private extension, or a
+  descendant of a type which has hidden components.
+  Given a specific tagged type T which is a descendant of a type A,
+  T is said to "extend A with hidden components" if any
+  ancestor of T which is not also an ancestor of A has
+  hidden components. 
+
+  AARM Note:
+  These particular characteristics of the type T follow
+  the general rules concerning characteristics of a
+  type given in 7.3.1.
+
+  Consider the following example:
+
+    package Pkg1 is
+      type T1 is tagged private
+      -- T1 has hidden components here.
+    private
+      type T1 is tagged null record;
+      -- T1 lacks hidden components here.
+    end Pkg1;
+
+    package Pkg1.Pkg2 is
+      type T2 is new Pkg1.T1 with null record;
+      -- T2 has hidden components here because
+      -- T1 has hidden components (as seen from
+      -- here).
+    private
+      -- T2 lacks hidden components here.
+    end Pkg2;
+
+    with Pkg1.Pkg2;
+    package body Pkg1 is  
+       type T3 is new Pkg2.T2 with null record;
+       -- T3 has hidden components here because T2
+       -- has hidden components (as seen from here)
+       -- even though T1 does not (as seen from here).
+    end Pkg1; 
+  
+
+In the Legality Rules section of 4.3.1, we replace 4.3.1(26)
+  If the type of a record_aggregate is a record extension, then
+  it shall be a descendant of a record type, through one or more
+  record extensions (and no private extensions).
+with
+  The type of a record aggregate shall not have hidden components.
+
+In the Legality Rules section of 4.3.2, we replace the second sentence of 4.3.2(5/2)
+   The type of the extension_aggregate shall be derived from the type
+   of the ancestor_part, through one or more record extensions (and
+   no private extensions).
+with
+   The type of the extension_aggregate shall be derived from the type
+   of the ancestor_part. The type of the extension aggregate shall
+   not extend the type of the ancestor_part with hidden components.
+
+1) Does this work?
+2) Is this a case where it would be useful to explicitly talk about
+   views of types as opposed to talking about types:
+   'A view of a type is said to have "hidden components" if ... ' ?
+3) Are any wording tweaks needed in order to cope with interface types?
+
+Randy:
+
+> 1) Does this work?
+
+I don't think so. The wording of 7.3.1 talks about *additional*
+characteristics becoming visible. You are trying to *delete* a
+characteristic, which is weird (to say the least).
+
+I tried briefly to turn this around to "known components" (which would
+have the right polarity work with 7.3.1), but that doesn't seem to
+compose properly.
+
+> 2) Is this a case where it would be useful to explicitly talk about
+>    views of types as opposed to talking about types:
+>    'A view of a type is said to have "hidden components" if ... ' ?
+
+Yes, because it very view dependent. And it would help make clear that
+it depends on the views and on 7.3.1.
+
+> 3) Are any wording tweaks needed in order to cope with interface 
+> types?
+
+Interfaces can't have components, so it is harmless to have an aggregate
+of one of them. So allowing them (where the old wording didn't) seems OK.
+(This would be the case where a type is derived from an interface.)
+
+Steve:
+
+Consider, for example, the characteristic of
+limitedness/limitation/limitosity (whatever we call it).
+
+Doesn't that shoot down your objection about deleting characteristics?
+
+Furthermore, I see no problem with reversing the polarity of the
+characteristic if we decide that we want that.
+
+Randy:
+
+"limitedness" can't be a characteristic, as it is not inherited 
+(esp. in Ada 2005) -- it's declared in most cases. I don't think any
+of the "characteristic" rules apply to it. "non-limitedness" could be
+a characteristic (it gets added). I realize that the wording of 7.3.1
+is vague enough that a "characteristic" could be pretty much could be
+anything you want. For instance, in this particular case, there is no
+wording at all about components being a characteristic. So who knows
+what the rule really is? It's really been defined by the ACATS and the
+various ramification AIs, not by wording in the standard.
+
+> Furthermore, I see no problem with reversing the polarity of the 
+> characteristic if we decide that we want that.
+
+I think that would be a better approach.
+
+Tucker:
+
+"the characteristics of a type" is defined in 7.3(15):
+
+   ...the *characteristics* of the type are ... the classes that
+   include the type, which components, entries, and protected
+   subprograms are visible, what attributes and other predefined
+   operations are allowed, and whether the first subtype is static.
+
+Although the wording of 7.3(15) is a bit awkward, I think the above
+is the way to interpret its definition of "characteristics."
+
+Limitedness is not a "characteristic," since as we all know it is not
+a "class" of types... ;-)  Clearly visibility of components *is* a
+characteristic, as is the availability of the "operations" of the type.
+
+Tucker:
+
+This sure is tricky! The term "known components" does seem better than
+"hidden components." It also works well with "known discriminants."
+
+It does seem a little odd to work this hard to preserve one of the more
+surprising aspects of Ada, namely that (metaphorically speaking...) you
+can know a type has a component, and it knows it has the component, but
+you can't talk about it together. I would rather spend energy coming up
+with a nice rule that allowed us to talk about these known components
+even in polite company.
+
+Steve:
+
+I would agree if we were starting from scratch, but that would be a much
+bigger change and I don't see the justification for it.
+
+Just FYI, the Rational compiler originally implemented the model that any
+characteristic of a given type that was known at a given point was also
+known about any types that depended on that type (this is in contrast
+to the treatment of implicitly declared subprograms because those have
+a well-defined point of declaration; characteristics do not).
+The view of the parent/component type that was available at the point where
+the derived/composite type was declared was ignored; what mattered was
+the current view of the type.
+
+This allowed something like
+
+   package P is
+      type T is limited private;
+
+      package Inner is
+        type A is array (Boolean) of T;
+      end Inner;
+
+    private
+      type T is new Integer;
+
+      X : Inner.A := (22, 33); -- Ada95, no aggs for limited types
+    end P;
+
+At the time that the "correct" Ada95 rules were implemented (by Bob),
+it seemed pretty silly to be adding complexity to the implementation in
+order to throw away useful information. Scenarios such as "I know that
+T1 is an array type and that T2 is derived from T1, but I don't know
+that T2 is an array type" always seemed like a mistake to me.
+
+Still, I don't think we should revisit that decision at this point.
+
+Tucker:
+
+I'm not suggesting we go so far as to allow *more* operations on a
+type than are possible at a point within the immediate scope of its
+declaration. I am simply suggesting parity with that.
+
+Steve:
+
+This version incorporates the polarity change (i.e. "known components" instead
+of "hidden components") and the explicit definition of these properties as
+"characteristics".
+
+I'm wondering whether there are still problems with types that are derived
+from untagged views of tagged types, and aggregates of those derived types.
+
+I included the phrase "... nor an immediate descendant of a descendant of A
+which ..." instead of the simpler "... not an immediate descendant of a type
+which ..." because of worries about interface types. If the progenitors of
+a type T include both A and some interface type I, then I don't want someone
+to argue that T is an immediate descendant of a type (i.e., I) which does
+ot extend A with known components. Is this wording necessary?
+
+Does this look like it would solve the problem?
+
+======================
+
+In 4.3.1 add a static semantics section ahead of the existing legality
+section which contains:
+
+  A specific tagged type T is said to "have known components"
+  if it is neither a tagged private type, a private extension, nor a
+  descendant of a type which has does not have known components.
+  Given a specific tagged type T having an ancestor type A,
+  T is said to "extend A with known components" if T is A or if
+  T is neither a tagged private type, a private extension, nor
+  an immediate descendant of a descendant of A which does not
+  extend A with known components. 
+
+  AARM Note:
+  Having known components and extending an ancestor type A with known
+  components are characteristics of the type T (see 7.3 and 7.3.1).
+
+  Consider the following example:
+
+    package Pkg1 is
+      type T1 is tagged private
+      -- T1 does not have known components here.
+    private
+      type T1 is tagged null record;
+      -- T1 has known components here.
+    end Pkg1;
+
+    package Pkg1.Pkg2 is
+      type T2 is new Pkg1.T1 with null record;
+      -- T2 does not have known components here because
+      -- T1 does not have known components (as seen from
+      -- here).
+    private
+      -- T2 has known components here.
+    end Pkg2;
+
+    with Pkg1.Pkg2;
+    package body Pkg1 is  
+       type T3 is new Pkg2.T2 with null record;
+       -- T3 does not have known components here because T2
+       -- does not have known components (as seen from here)
+       -- even though T1 does (as seen from here).
+    end Pkg1; 
+  
+
+In the Legality Rules section of 4.3.1, replace 4.3.1(26)
+  If the type of a record_aggregate is a record extension, then
+  it shall be a descendant of a record type, through one or more
+  record extensions (and no private extensions).
+with
+  The type of a record aggregate shall have known components.
+
+In the Legality Rules section of 4.3.2, replace the second sentence of 4.3.2(5/2)
+  The type of the extension_aggregate shall be derived from the type
+  of the ancestor_part, through one or more record extensions (and
+  no private extensions).
+with
+  The type of the extension_aggregate shall be derived from the type
+  of the ancestor_part. The type of the extension aggregate shall
+  extend the type of the ancestor_part with known components.
+.
+
+In 7.3(15), extend the definition of "characteristic".
+In the sentence
+  Moreover, within the scope of the declaration of the full view, the
+  characteristics of the type are determined by the full view; in particular,
+  within its scope, the full view determines the classes that include the
+  type, which components, entries, and protected subprograms are visible,
+  what attributes and other predefined operations are allowed, and whether
+  the first subtype is static. 
+replace the ending
+   "and whether the first subtype is static"
+with
+   "whether first subtype is static, whether the type has known components,
+    and (for any ancestor type A of the given type) whether the type
+    extends A with known components" .
+
+Tucker:
+
+This seems like progress.  It is nice that the term simplifies the rule
+about aggregates, once you get through with its definition.
+
+Here are alternatives that seem equivalent, though I'm not sure:
+
+    A specific tagged type T is defined to have "known components"
+    if it is not a partial view, nor have an ancestor that
+    is a partial view.
+
+    Given a specific tagged type T having an ancestor type A,
+    T is defined to "extend A with known components" if T is a record
+    extension of A, or if T extends a type B with known components
+    and B extends A with known components.
+
+Randy:
+
+>     A specific tagged type T is defined to have "known components"
+>     if it is not a partial view, nor have an ancestor that
+>     is a partial view.
+
+"has an ancestor".
+
+But I don't think this is right. The original Adam example has no ancestors
+that are partial views from the point of the aggregate, yet it still should
+be illegal. That's the original cause of this problem.
+
+It needs to invoke the point of the derivation somehow. In that sense, the
+Steve version is better. But probably we could try something in the middle:
+    A specific tagged type T is defined to have "known components" if it is
+    not a partial view, nor is it derived from a type that does not have
+    known components at the point of the type derivation.
+
+Umm, that still isn't quite right (because as Steve points out, the ancestor
+can get the known components later, and that should be legal. The "point of
+the type derivation" needs to be dropped.
+
+    A specific tagged type T is defined to have "known components" if it is
+    not a partial view, nor is it derived from a type that does not have
+    known components (based on the view of the parent type that T has).
+
+The important point here is that this property is recalculated for each
+ancestor's derivation individually and propagated up the chain. It is *not*
+calculated for "ancestors" in general, because you can different answers
+depending on the order that you look at the ancestors (with sufficiently
+messy child packages).
+ 
+>     Given a specific tagged type T having an ancestor type A,
+>     T is defined to "extend A with known components" if T is a record
+>     extension of A, or if T extends a type B with known components
+>     and B extends A with known components.
+
+This one seems OK, except that it seems to allow arbitrary orders of
+evaluation (Again, we can only do one step at a time, or we could get
+the wrong answer). So I'd suggest something like:
+
+     Given a specific tagged type T having an ancestor type A,
+     T is defined to "extend A with known components" if T is a record
+     extension of A, or if T extends a type B with known components
+     and B is a record extension of A.
+
+This forces bottom-up recursion, which should give the right answer.
+
+Humm, this seems to also suffer from the location issue; in the later case,
+we want to look B from the perspective of T. So this wording seems
+backwards. Try it this way:
+
+     Given a specific tagged type T having an ancestor type A,
+     T is defined to "extend A with known components" if T is a record
+     extension of A, or if T is a record extension of a type B, and
+     (based on the view of B that T has) B extends A with known components.
+
+Oh well, I'm not completely sure these make any sense, either. We need to try
+them against the batch of examples that we previously did.
+
+****************************************************************
 
     

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