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!standard 12.03 (11)          06-03-15 AI05-0005-1/00
!class confirmation 06-03-15
!status received 06-03-15
!priority Low
!difficulty Easy
!qualifier Omission
!subject Editorial comments on AARM 2005
!summary
This AI serves as a holder for editorial comments on AARM-only annotations. This AI serves the same purpose as AI95-00114 for Ada 2005. Because the AARM has no official status as far as ISO is concerned, these will be considered low priority.
If a change cross-references this AI, find it in the Appendix below.
!question
!response
!appendix

From: Stephen Leake
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006  7:04 PM

I'm reading the Ada 2005 LRM "cover-to-cover" (to be sure I know about
all the new stuff), and noticed that paragraphs 3.1 7, 8 are
identical. I suspect 8 should be deleted.

****************************************************************

From: Tucker Taft
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 12:57 PM

Good point!

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006  1:09 PM

Note that all of the paragraph numbers of that clause (after number 7) are
wrong (because of the extra junk paragraph). This bug is only in (draft 16
of the) RM/AARM, and not in the Amendment proper.

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006  8:35 PM

10.1.4(5.e/2) says that the "second" rule applies, but there is only one
(very long) sentence in 10.1.4(5). 10.1.4(5.e/2) should say that the
"consistency" rule applies so that there is no ambiguity.

****************************************************************

From: Pascal Leroy
Sent: Wednesday, January 3, 2007   1:39 PM

I am looking at the example in 3.10.1(2.a-2.d), and specifically at the
first comment in 3.10.1(2.d).

I surely hope that this comment is incorrect, otherwise adding "with P" in
front of the body of P would change the semantics.  Surely we did not
design a language where withing yourself has any observable effect...

I actually think that this comment is just inconsistent with the rules:
even if you are in the scope of a nonlimited_with_clause for P,
3.10.1(2.4/2) doesn't apply because the completion of T is not declared in
a visible part.

I am not exactly sure how the example should be modified.  Perhaps it
should say "note that the second rule ensures that a
nonlimited_with_clause for P doesn't make Ptr.all'Size legal before the
completion of T".

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Wednesday, January 3, 2007  12:20 PM

> I actually think that this comment is just inconsistent with the rules:
> even if you are in the scope of a nonlimited_with_clause for P,
> 3.10.1(2.4/2) doesn't apply because the completion of T is not declared in
> a visible part.

Yes, that's obviously true.
 
> I am not exactly sure how the example should be modified.  Perhaps it
> should say "note that the second rule ensures that a
> nonlimited_with_clause for P doesn't make Ptr.all'Size legal before the
> completion of T".

I think the entire part after the comma should be dropped. I don't think anything useful
can be said for this example. The sentence is nonsense in any case, because we know
that "with P.C" is the same as "with P, P.C;". This is just the example of why
we need the "in whose visible part", and it hardly makes sense to mention the
other case (it would be a very different example).

****************************************************************

From: Pascal Leroy
Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2007   9:44 AM

Another one to put in this AI: 4.1(7/2) has apparently been changed by the
Amendment (otherwise it wouldn't say /2, right?) but it has no
cross-reference to an AI.

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2007   12:27 PM

This is one of the changes from AI05-0004; the tools didn't support such
cross-references when those were put in. That needs to be done, and the version
really ought to be /3 on those (see AI95-0004 for a complete list).

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007   6:53 PM

The reason behind the first half of 10.2.1(15.3/2) is very obscure, the AARM Reason
note should explain:

Such an allocator would provide a backdoor way to get a global variable into a pure
unit, so it is prohibited. Most such allocators are illegal anyway, as their type is
required to have Storage_Size = 0. But access parameters and access discriminants
don't necessarily disallow allocators. However, a call is also illegal here
(by the preelaboration rules), so access parameters cannot cause trouble. So this
rule is really about prohibiting allocators in discriminant constraints:

    type Rec (Acc : access Integer) is record
        C : Character;
    end record;

    Not_Const : constant Rec (Acc => new Integer'(2)); -- Illegal.

The second half of the rule is needed because aggregates can specify the default
initialization of a private type or extension using <> or the ancestor subtype
of an extension aggregate. The subtype of a component could use an allocator to
initialize an access discriminant; the type still could have a
pragma Preelaborable_Initialization given. Ada 95 did not allow such private types
to have preelaborable initialization, so such a default initialization could not
have occurred. Thus this rule is not incompatible with Ada 95.

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007   5:53 PM

The rules 4.3(3/2), 4.3.1(8/2), 4.3.2(4/2), and 4.3.3(7/2) can be confusing.
These are the rules that determine how an aggregate is resolved.

Tucker says (privately) that these rules are "additive"; 4.3(3/2) says don't
look inside an aggregate until you have a single array, record, or record
extension type. 4.3.1(8/2) says that you don't start
considering the "record aggregate" possibility until you
have a single record or record extension type. And so on.

There should be AARM notes that explain this on 4.3(3/2) and 4.3.2(4/2). (There
are already notes on 4.3.1(8/2) and 4.3.3(7/2).

After 4.3(3/2), we should have something like:

AARM Ramification: There are additional rules for each kind of aggregate. These
aggregate rules are additive; a legal expression needs to satisfy all of the
applicable rules. That means the rule given here must be satisfied even when
it is syntactally possible to tell which specific kind of aggregate is being
used.

After 4.3.2(4/2), we should have something like:

AARM Ramification: This rule is additive with the rule given in 4.3. That means
that rule must be satisfied even though it is alway syntactally possible to
tell that something is an extension aggregate. Specifically, that means that
an extension aggregate is ambiguous if the context is overloaded on array and/or
record types, even though those are never legal contexts for an extension
aggregate. Thus, this rule acts more like a legality rule than a name resolution
rule.

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007   8:53 PM

The mail on AI05-0037 says (on the topic of whether <> needs to be added to any
existing aggregate wording):

4.3.3(23) worried me a bit, but I concluded it is already OK. <> means the
component "initialized by default". If there are multiple associated components,
each one will be initialized by default (and if that means that each component
ends up with a different value, so be it). It doesn't say that one component
is initialized by default, and then others are copied from it.

4.3.1(20) also appears worrisome. But here it doesn't make sense to talk
about "for each associated component" in the case of <>, because we're
considering the value of <> for each individual associated component. (see
4.3.1(19.1/2)). And each component has its own default expression or its own
default initialization. After all, even the types of the components can be
different for a single association.

It might make sense to add an AARM note to make that point clear (for both
4.3.1(20) and 4.3.3(23)), but I don't think any wording changes are needed.

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007  10:53 PM

AC-0140 says that improved AARM notes are needed in 3.10.2(3), 3.10.2(29), and
13.10(3). Here are those notes:

3.10.2(3): Discussion: The Unchecked_Access attribute acts as if the object was
declared at library-level; this applies even when it is used as the value of 
anonymous access type. See 13.10.

3.10.2(12.1): Ramification: If the value for this rule and the next one is derived
from an Unchecked_Access attribute, the accessibility is library-level no matter
what the accessibility level of the object is (see 13.10).

3.10.2(13): Ramification: If the value of the actual is derived from an
Unchecked_Access attribute, the accessibility is always library-level (see 13.10).

13.10(3): Ramification: We say "rules and semantics" here so that library-level
accessibility applies to the value created by X'Unchecked_Access as well as to
the checks needed for the attribute itself. This means that any anonymous access
values that inherit the accessibility of this attribute (such as access
parameters) also act as if they have library-level accessibility. We don't want
the "real" accessibility of the created value re-emerging at a later point -
that would create hard-to-understand bugs.

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007  7:55 PM

3.9.1(4.c/2) should talk about subprograms that require overriding, not
abstract subprograms. (While the example only talks about abstract types,
the problem can happen with all types being concrete; consider deriving
directly from type TT in the generic body.)

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007  8:52 PM

10.1.2(11.j/2) is no longer needed as a To be honest rule, as the normative
wording now says this (see AI95-00220). It isn't very worthwhile as a note,
so it should be deleted.

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007  9:12 PM

AC-141 talks about a confusion in reading the wording of 8.3.1(5/2). It's
thought that alternative readings don't make much sense, but adding an
AARM note would be helpful:

To Be Honest: This doesn't require that the overriding happen 
at precisely the place of the declaration or body; it only requires
that the region in which the overriding is known to have happened
includes this place. That is, the overriding can happen at or before
the place of the declaration or body.

****************************************************************

From: Adam Beneschan
Sent: Friday, June 8, 2007  7:25 PM

!topic Minor error in AARM 6.5
!reference AARM 6.5(5.f/2)
!from Adam Beneschan 07-06-08
!discussion

AARM 6.5(5.f) says about an extended_return_statement: "If the return
statement is left without resulting in a return (for example, due to
an exception propagated from the _expression_ or the
_handled_sequence_of_statements_, or a goto out of the
_handled_sequence_of_statements_), the return object is finalized
prior to leaving the return statement.

Is "expression" correct in this note?  It would seem to me that if an
exception is propagated from the evaluation of the expression, the
return object is not initialized (according to the order that things
are performed in 6.5(5.8)) and therefore does not need to be finalized
(see 7.6.1(4)).

****************************************************************

From: Gary Dismukes
Sent: Friday, June 8, 2007  7:37 PM

Looks like you're right about that.  The return object can hardly be finalized
if it hasn't even been created!  (Fortunately that's only in the AARM.:)

****************************************************************

!topic Bogus AARM information
!reference AARM 7.6(21.b/2), AARM 7.6.1(24.c/2)
!from Adam Beneschan 07-06-20
!discussion

There are a couple places in the AARM that I believe provide incorrect
information when dealing with a "built-in-place" function call.  I saw
these when I was trying to figure out what would happen with an
extended return, and the information threw me off; it took some time
before I figured out that the AARM was probably incorrect.

Consider:

    with Ada.Finalization;
    package Pak1 is
        type String_Acc is access String;
        type Typ1 is new Ada.Finalization.Controlled with record
            F1 : Integer;
            F2 : Integer;
            F3 : String_Acc;
        end record;
--      procedure Initialize (Obj : in out Typ1);
        procedure Adjust     (Obj : in out Typ1);
--      procedure Finalize   (Obj : in out Typ1);
        function Func1 (Val : Integer) return Typ1;
    end Pak1;

    with Text_IO;
    package body Pak1 is

        procedure Adjust (Obj : in out Typ1) is
        begin
            if Obj.F3 /= null then
                Obj.F3 := new String' (Obj.F3.all);
            end if;
        end Adjust;

        function Func1 (Val : Integer) return Typ1 is
        begin
            return Ret : Typ1 do
                Ret.F1 := Val * 2;
                Ret.F2 := Val * 3;
                Ret.F3 := new String' (1 .. Val => '?');
            end return;
        end Func1;

    end Pak1;    

    with Pak1;
    procedure Test1 is
        Z : Pak1.Typ1 := Pak1.Func1 (1000);
    begin
        Pak2.Do_Something_With (Z);
    end Test1;

When Z is initialized, 7.6(21) gives the implementation permission to
have Func1 build its result directly in Z, without requiring an
anonymous object; but this isn't a requirement.  If the call to Func1
creates an anonymous object, then Adjust will be called on Z after
this anonymous object is copied to Z, and then Finalize will be called
on the anonymous object (presumably there would be a real Finalize
that deallocates F3).  If the implementation takes advantage of the
permission, then it would seem the extended return statement would
essentially be setting up Z.F1, Z.F2, and Z.F3.  No Adjust would be
necessary on Z, and an Adjust would not be desirable since it would
result in two copies of the same string, one of which would not be
part of any object of type Typ1 and thus would never be deallocated by
Finalize.  So it would seem that Adjust is not called at all by the
declaration of Z.  Am I right, that this is how things are "supposed"
to work?

In fact, this seems to be confirmed by AARM 7.6(2.b/2): "When an
object is created, if it is explicitly assigned an initial value, the
object is either built-in-place from an aggregate or function call (in
which case neither Adjust nor Initialize is applied), or the
assignment copies and adjusts the initial value."

But 7.6(21.b/2) seems to directly contradict this.  After mentioning
the aggregate case in 21.a, 21.b says, "Similarly, in the function
call case, the anonymous object can be eliminated. Note, however, that
Adjust must be called directly on the target object as the last step
of the assignment, since some of the subcomponents may be
self-referential or otherwise position-dependent. This Adjust can be
eliminated only by using one of the following permissions."  

(The "following permissions" refer to cases where a variable isn't
actually used except by dead code, so they wouldn't apply in the above
example.)

This seems wrong.

If I'm correct, then 7.6.1(24.c/2) is wrong also:

"Either Initialize or Adjust, but not both, is applied to (almost)
every controlled object when it is created: Initialize is done when no
initial value is assigned to the object, whereas Adjust is done as
part of assigning the initial value. The one exception is the
anonymous object initialized created by an aggregate (both the
anonymous object created for an aggregate, or an object initialized by
an aggregate that is built-in-place); Initialize is not applied to the
aggregate as a whole, nor is the value of the aggregate or object
adjusted."

since there are now two exceptions instead of one.

I realize that this is probably low priority since it's "just" the
AARM.  But I do refer to the AARM, and I think it's important that the
AARM not give bad information.

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007   2:53 PM

> There are a couple places in the AARM that I believe provide incorrect
> information when dealing with a "built-in-place" function call.  I saw
> these when I was trying to figure out what would happen with an
> extended return, and the information threw me off; it took some time
> before I figured out that the AARM was probably incorrect.

I don't think the AARM is incorrect, although it might not be clear as it
could be. (That's true for the normative wording as well.)

>Consider:
>
>    with Ada.Finalization;
>    package Pak1 is
>        type String_Acc is access String;
>        type Typ1 is new Ada.Finalization.Controlled with record
>            F1 : Integer;
>            F2 : Integer;
>            F3 : String_Acc;
>        end record;
>--      procedure Initialize (Obj : in out Typ1);
>        procedure Adjust     (Obj : in out Typ1);
>--      procedure Finalize   (Obj : in out Typ1);
>        function Func1 (Val : Integer) return Typ1;
>    end Pak1;
>
>    with Text_IO;
>    package body Pak1 is
>
>        procedure Adjust (Obj : in out Typ1) is
>        begin
>            if Obj.F3 /= null then
>                Obj.F3 := new String' (Obj.F3.all);
>            end if;
>        end Adjust;
>
>        function Func1 (Val : Integer) return Typ1 is
>        begin
>            return Ret : Typ1 do
>                Ret.F1 := Val * 2;
>                Ret.F2 := Val * 3;
>                Ret.F3 := new String' (1 .. Val => '?');
>            end return;
>        end Func1;
>
>    end Pak1;
>
>    with Pak1;
>    procedure Test1 is
>        Z : Pak1.Typ1 := Pak1.Func1 (1000);
>    begin
>        Pak2.Do_Something_With (Z);
>    end Test1;

> When Z is initialized, 7.6(21) gives the implementation permission to
> have Func1 build its result directly in Z, without requiring an
> anonymous object; but this isn't a requirement.  If the call to Func1
> creates an anonymous object, then Adjust will be called on Z after
> this anonymous object is copied to Z, and then Finalize will be called
> on the anonymous object (presumably there would be a real Finalize
> that deallocates F3).  If the implementation takes advantage of the
> permission, then it would seem the extended return statement would
> essentially be setting up Z.F1, Z.F2, and Z.F3.  No Adjust would be
> necessary on Z, and an Adjust would not be desirable since it would
> result in two copies of the same string, one of which would not be
> part of any object of type Typ1 and thus would never be deallocated by
> Finalize.  So it would seem that Adjust is not called at all by the
> declaration of Z.  Am I right, that this is how things are "supposed"
> to work?

But you forgot to include a call to Initialize in your description. I see
that you have Initialize commented out, but a null Initialize is still
called. It's a mistake to ignore those null calls just because they have no
effect, it is hard enough to figure out what is supposed to happen without
leaving out part of the equation.

The declaration of Ret : Typ1 in your example calls Initialize. (If that had
been initialized with an aggregate, there would have been no call to
Initialize, different story.) 6.5(5.8/2) says that the object is initialized
by default, and that wording is a defined term which includes all of the
stuff, including calling Initialize.

The only thing that is a real rule is that only "pairs" of finalization
operations are removed, so if a Finalize is removed, an Adjust is removed
somewhere, too. (We didn't write it that way because there may be more than
two operations in a "pair" if control flow intercedes, but at run time it is
always a pair.)

I do agree that Adjust isn't called by the declaration of Z, because
Initialize is instead (and you never call them both on the same object for
the same operation).

> In fact, this seems to be confirmed by AARM 7.6(2.b/2): "When an
> object is created, if it is explicitly assigned an initial value, the
> object is either built-in-place from an aggregate or function call (in
> which case neither Adjust nor Initialize is applied), or the
> assignment copies and adjusts the initial value."
>
> But 7.6(21.b/2) seems to directly contradict this.  After mentioning
> the aggregate case in 21.a, 21.b says, "Similarly, in the function
> call case, the anonymous object can be eliminated. Note, however, that
> Adjust must be called directly on the target object as the last step
> of the assignment, since some of the subcomponents may be
> self-referential or otherwise position-dependent. This Adjust can be
> eliminated only by using one of the following permissions."

7.6(21.b/2) is just a continuation of the Ada 95 note 7.6(21.a), and it says
*exactly* the same thing (with more words). Clearly, if either are wrong,
both are.

In any case, it is clear that these are talking about assignments into
existing objects (including those that were previously Initialized), and not
build-in-place into new objects. (The later has completely different [null]
semantics and can never be combined with any discussion of "real"
assignment.) That's true in virtually every note in the AARM that talks
about dynamic semantics of assignment; you don't "assign" into a new object,
only into existing ones.

Now, maybe there is some wording that could be added that would help clarify
this, but it would have to be added in literally dozens of places, and in
such a way that it would not make the information harder to understand (the
point of AARM notes is to clarify, after all).

> (The "following permissions" refer to cases where a variable isn't
> actually used except by dead code, so they wouldn't apply in the above
> example.)
>
> This seems wrong.
>
> If I'm correct, then 7.6.1(24.c/2) is wrong also:
>
> "Either Initialize or Adjust, but not both, is applied to (almost)
> every controlled object when it is created: Initialize is done when no
> initial value is assigned to the object, whereas Adjust is done as
> part of assigning the initial value. The one exception is the
> anonymous object initialized created by an aggregate (both the
> anonymous object created for an aggregate, or an object initialized by
> an aggregate that is built-in-place); Initialize is not applied to the
> aggregate as a whole, nor is the value of the aggregate or object
> adjusted."
>
> since there are now two exceptions instead of one.

No, this is correct as written. There may be intermediate function calls,
but they're irrelevant. Ultimately, you either get initialized directly by
an aggregate, or Initialize is called. In your example, Initialize is
called. So I don't see any other exceptions.

> I realize that this is probably low priority since it's "just" the
> AARM.  But I do refer to the AARM, and I think it's important that the
> AARM not give bad information.

It's low priority because not much (if anything) is wrong. It looks like
you're just confused about where Initialize is called. The only reason I see
for making a change is that you were confused, and that always suggests that
things aren't as clear as they should be somewhere.

****************************************************************

From: Tucker Taft
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007   2:52 PM

I believe what is misleading about 7.6(21.b/2) is
that it only applies to assignment_statement, while
it uses the term "assignment."  The wording it replaced
properly used the term "assignment_statement," and
I think that term should continue to be used in the revised
wording.

I don't see what is wrong with 7.6.1(24.c/2), since I believe
the only case where Adjust is not called is when, at
least "deep down," there is an aggregate.  It might
be returned through several function calls that use
build-in-place for return, but underneath it all
there needs to be an aggregate.  It could probably be
a bit clearer, I suppose, about the possibility of
intervening function returns.

****************************************************************

From: Adam Beneschan
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007   4:18 PM

> > When Z is initialized, 7.6(21) gives the implementation permission to
> > have Func1 build its result directly in Z, without requiring an
> > anonymous object; but this isn't a requirement.  If the call to Func1
> > creates an anonymous object, then Adjust will be called on Z after
> > this anonymous object is copied to Z, and then Finalize will be called
> > on the anonymous object (presumably there would be a real Finalize
> > that deallocates F3).  If the implementation takes advantage of the
> > permission, then it would seem the extended return statement would
> > essentially be setting up Z.F1, Z.F2, and Z.F3.  No Adjust would be
> > necessary on Z, and an Adjust would not be desirable since it would
> > result in two copies of the same string, one of which would not be
> > part of any object of type Typ1 and thus would never be deallocated by
> > Finalize.  So it would seem that Adjust is not called at all by the
> > declaration of Z.  Am I right, that this is how things are "supposed"
> > to work?
> 
> But you forgot to include a call to Initialize in your
> description....

Right, I could have been more precise about that.  I really didn't see
that it made a difference, though, since the AARM paragraph I was
questioning made no reference to Initializing.  OK, now I see how this
affects the *second* one I was complaining about (7.6(24.c/2)).

 
> 7.6(21.b/2) is just a continuation of the Ada 95 note 7.6(21.a), and it says
> *exactly* the same thing (with more words). Clearly, if either are wrong,
> both are.

Interesting---I didn't see it that way at all when I read it.  The way
the paragraph breaks are organized, it made it look like the part of
7.6(21.b/2) after the first sentence applied only to this paragraph,
not to the previous one.

 
> In any case, it is clear that these are talking about assignments into
> existing objects (including those that were previously Initialized), and not
> build-in-place into new objects. 

Why is this clear?  The notes 7.6(21.a-21.b) follow, and seem to apply
to, 7.6(21), which talks *both* about build-in-place for new objects
*and* assignment statements; I don't see anything in the text that
would indicate that 21.a-21.b apply to the assignment-statement part
of 21 but not to the build-in-place-for-new-objects part.  I think
Tuck already addressed this... the previous version of 21.b referred
to an "assignment_statement", which would have made things clearer in
the rest of the paragraph, but that reference got deleted.


> (The later has completely different [null]
> semantics and can never be combined with any discussion of "real"
> assignment.) That's true in virtually every note in the AARM that talks
> about dynamic semantics of assignment; you don't "assign" into a new object,
> only into existing ones.

Well, I was going to respond that 3.3.1(19) used the term "assigned"
to put an initial value into a new object.  But now I notice that this
language got moved up to the preceding paragraph which only applies to
objects with no initialization expression.  So I guess that change
made your statement correct.  :)

There's still 7.6(13):

"When a target object with any controlled parts is assigned a value,
either when created or in a subsequent assignment_statement, the
assignment operation proceeds as follows:"

which does make it seem that you *do* assign into a new object.  But I
guess you could say this is only the case if the Implementation
Permission (or Implementation Requirement, for limited types) not to
create a temporary anonymous object is followed, in which case 7.6(15)
of course does not apply either.  It appears to me that the whole
build-in-place concept seems to make some statements in the Dynamic
Semantics sections false, which suggests to me that it should have
been defined and dealt with in Dynamic Semantics rather than in
Implementation Requirements/Permissions, but it's probably too late to
change that now.


> > If I'm correct, then 7.6.1(24.c/2) is wrong also:
> >
> > "Either Initialize or Adjust, but not both, is applied to (almost)
> > every controlled object when it is created: Initialize is done when no
> > initial value is assigned to the object, whereas Adjust is done as
> > part of assigning the initial value. The one exception is the
> > anonymous object initialized created by an aggregate (both the
> > anonymous object created for an aggregate, or an object initialized by
> > an aggregate that is built-in-place); Initialize is not applied to the
> > aggregate as a whole, nor is the value of the aggregate or object
> > adjusted."
> >
> > since there are now two exceptions instead of one.
> 
> No, this is correct as written. There may be intermediate function calls,
> but they're irrelevant. Ultimately, you either get initialized directly by
> an aggregate, or Initialize is called. In your example, Initialize is
> called. So I don't see any other exceptions.

Yeah, I'll concede this... I forgot about the Initialize on Ret.

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007   5:48 PM

> I believe what is misleading about 7.6(21.b/2) is
> that it only applies to assignment_statement, while
> it uses the term "assignment."  The wording it replaced
> properly used the term "assignment_statement," and
> I think that term should continue to be used in the revised
> wording.

But that would be wrong, because it equally applies to initial assignments
where an anonymous object was used (as Adam pointed out in his analysis).
Also, whatever applies here also applies to 7.6(21.a), which talks about a
"value adjustment".

One way to fix this would be to rewrite both paragraphs to make clear that
they do not apply to "build-in-place assignment to a newly created object",
but it's not clear to me that that would help the understandability of it.
Realistically, build-in-place is not really assignment at all (no bits are
copied), and considering it that is really confusing. I suppose we don't
have any hope of fixing that directly, but maybe we could at least do
something to make sense for the notes. Maybe we need to define "genuine
assignment" for use in the AARM to describe cases where bits are actually
copied. (I'd prefer "real assignment" for that, but that could be confused.)

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007   6:04 PM

...
> > 7.6(21.b/2) is just a continuation of the Ada 95 note
> 7.6(21.a), and it says
> > *exactly* the same thing (with more words). Clearly, if either
> are wrong,
> > both are.
>
> Interesting---I didn't see it that way at all when I read it.  The way
> the paragraph breaks are organized, it made it look like the part of
> 7.6(21.b/2) after the first sentence applied only to this paragraph,
> not to the previous one.

They were originally separate paragraphs, but there really is no interesting
difference between then and they should not really be separate. You have to
do an adjust anytime that you copy bits.

> > In any case, it is clear that these are talking about assignments into
> > existing objects (including those that were previously Initialized), and
not
> > build-in-place into new objects.
>
> Why is this clear?

Because it's clear to me, and I wrote these notes. ;-) As I wrote in
response to Tucker, build-in-place is a different animal altogether, and
describing it as an assignment is very confusing to the casual reader. Or
even the casual (or rushed) writer.

> The notes 7.6(21.a-21.b) follow, and seem to apply
> to, 7.6(21), which talks *both* about build-in-place for new objects
> *and* assignment statements; I don't see anything in the text that
> would indicate that 21.a-21.b apply to the assignment-statement part
> of 21 but not to the build-in-place-for-new-objects part.  I think
> Tuck already addressed this... the previous version of 21.b referred
> to an "assignment_statement", which would have made things clearer in
> the rest of the paragraph, but that reference got deleted.

I as I mentioned to Tuck, that would be wrong. OK, it would be fight but it
would make the nore far more narrow than it should be. Both notes apply
anytime bits are copied (but not build-in-place).

I suppose trying to fix these notes rather than deleting them and starting
over got me into trouble. It happens a lot in the AARM.

In any case, the note had better be true whenever there is a copying of
bits, because packages like Claw depend totally on that. Not just in
assignment_statement, but anywhere that bits are copied. You don't need an
Adjust for build-in-place, because no bits are being copied and presumably
the object was properly created (most likely with an Initialize) in the
first place.

> > (The later has completely different [null]
> > semantics and can never be combined with any discussion of "real"
> > assignment.) That's true in virtually every note in the AARM that talks
> > about dynamic semantics of assignment; you don't "assign" into a new
object,
> > only into existing ones.
...
> There's still 7.6(13):
>
> "When a target object with any controlled parts is assigned a value,
> either when created or in a subsequent assignment_statement, the
> assignment operation proceeds as follows:"
>
> which does make it seem that you *do* assign into a new object.

You misunderstood me. I said *in notes* of the AARM, I was *not* talking
about the formal definition of the language. Yes, of course build-in-place
is technically assignment.
*Informal* uses generally *exclude* build-in-place because no bits are
copied, no finalization operations happen, etc. -- it's generally not
interesting. Would you (if you were not language lawyering) consider
build-in-place to be an assignment? If so, I think you're pretty unusual.

It's highly unfortunate that the useful term "assignment" has been corrupted
by the language into something meaningless, but I guess that can't be
helped. But I doubt that there are many AARM notes that I wrote or that the
Ada 9x team wrote that consider (or except) the vastly different rules for
build-in-place. So it would not surprise me if you found many more examples
where notes don't take that into account.

If you find them, I'll put them on the list to be fixed. But I still not
sure of an appropriate fix that doesn't greatly confuse the issue.

****************************************************************

From: Adam Beneschan
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007   6:17 PM

> You misunderstood me. I said *in notes* of the AARM, I was *not* talking
> about the formal definition of the language. Yes, of course build-in-place
> is technically assignment.
> *Informal* uses generally *exclude* build-in-place because no bits are
> copied, no finalization operations happen, etc. -- it's generally not
> interesting. Would you (if you were not language lawyering) consider
> build-in-place to be an assignment? If so, I think you're pretty unusual.

Well, you're probably right.  But not *that* unusual. :) No, I
wouldn't consider that to be assignment---but I do tend to look
through language-lawyer eyes when trying to figure out what the
standard requires, which is approximately the same problem I had when
trying to figure out when an extended return is "completed".

 
> It's highly unfortunate that the useful term "assignment" has been corrupted
> by the language into something meaningless, but I guess that can't be
> helped. But I doubt that there are many AARM notes that I wrote or that the
> Ada 9x team wrote that consider (or except) the vastly different rules for
> build-in-place. So it would not surprise me if you found many more examples
> where notes don't take that into account.
> 
> If you find them, I'll put them on the list to be fixed. But I still not
> sure of an appropriate fix that doesn't greatly confuse the issue.

Perhaps the best fix would be:

"An implementation is permitted to omit the separate anonymous object
for an aggregate or function call, and to omit Initialize, Adjust, and
Finalize calls, when it can do so and still make things work right."
Not very precise, but at least it wouldn't be confusing.  :)

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007   6:45 PM

I take it you are suggesting that there be no notes at all? (Useless notes
like this one add nothing to the language-defined permission, after all.)
That surely would be one solution to the confusion.

BTW, your suggested wording is very close to something someone else proposed
a couple of months ago (for a different but related issue). I think it
captures the essence nicely, but of course it is completely meaningless
(what does "work right" mean?).

****************************************************************

From: Tucker Taft
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007   11:45 PM

>> I believe what is misleading about 7.6(21.b/2) is
>> that it only applies to assignment_statement, while
>> it uses the term "assignment."  The wording it replaced
>> properly used the term "assignment_statement," and
>> I think that term should continue to be used in the revised
>> wording.
> 
> But that would be wrong, because it equally applies to initial assignments
> where an anonymous object was used (as Adam pointed out in his analysis).
> Also, whatever applies here also applies to 7.6(21.a), which talks about a
> "value adjustment".

I still don't agree.  The last sentence of 7.6(21.b/2)
is referring to an assignment statement based on
my reading.  7.6(21/2) talks about two things.  One
is build-in-place when the RHS is an aggregate or
function call.  The other is about an assignment
statement where the RHS is non-overlapping, or
the assignment is done component-at-a-time (carefully).
I believe the last sentence of 7.6(21.b/2) is referring
to this last part of 7.6(21/2), which is specifically
talking about assignment statements.  The whole point
of the last sentence of 7.6(21.b/2) is that you cannot
eliminate the Adjust, even if you eliminate the anonymous
intermediate object.  On the other hand, it is no
problem to eliminate the Adjust when doing build-in-place
where the RHS is an aggregate, and in fact it would
be wrong to do an Adjust for any build-in-place
assignment from an aggregate.

For what it is worth, I find the *first* sentence of 7.6(21.b/2)
to be curious, as it seems to be repeating the content of
the first sentence of 7.6(21/2), and I think may be an
unintentional remnant, and should be deleted.  Otherwise,
someone needs to explain what "function call" it is
referring to, if not to the one already mentioned in
the first part of 7.6(21/2).
> 
> One way to fix this would be to rewrite both paragraphs to make clear that
> they do not apply to "build-in-place assignment to a newly created object",
> but it's not clear to me that that would help the understandability of it.

You seem to be implying that build-in-place on a preexisting object
in an assignment statement requires an Adjust.  I don't understand
that.  I think build-in-place eliminates the need for Adjust,
both when creating a new object and when assigning to a
preexisting object.  If there is no separate object that is going to
be finalized after the adjust, then we don't want to do the
adjust.

One challenge is that I don't believe it is really feasible
to do build-in-place for an assignment *statement* when the RHS is
a function call, since you clearly need to evaluate the
RHS before finalizing the LHS, but you must finalize the LHS
before changing it.  So build-in-place for an assignment *statement*
really only works if you can evaluate all of the subcomponents
of the aggregate *without* storing them in the target object,
then finalize the target object, and then (with aborts deferred)
assign each of the subcomponents into the LHS.  I believe
you need to defer aborts since you don't want a Finalize
to be applied to the LHS when is in the middle of being
overwritten.  But in any case, you don't want to call Adjust
if you build-in-place.  Adjust really only makes sense if you
are copying the bits of a fully-formed object into another
location.  I believe that is what 7.6(17.1/2) is saying.  Even though
the requirement to build-in-place only exists for assignments
which are *not* part of an assignment statement, I believe the
*meaning* of build-in-place and the requirement to *omit* the
Adjust is provided by 7.6(17.1/2), and then applies to the
use of the term in 7.6(21/2).

It would be weird if you would have to use
slightly different aggregates depending on
whether you were assigning to a newly created object versus
a pre-existing object.  In both cases you want the aggregates
to represent fully adjusted values.  For example, if an
adjust increments a reference count for a pointed-to object,
and finalize decrements the reference count, the aggregate
would want to initialize the reference count of the
pointed-to object to "1".  E.g.

    (x, y, new indir_obj'(ref_count => 1, ...), z)

would be the appropriate way to write an aggregate for
such a type, no matter in what context it is used.

I am coming around to thinking that the AARM notes following
7.6(21/2) are pretty badly broken.  I would recommend
we make them simpler and clearer, perhaps as follows:

Replace 7.6(21.a & b) with:

   Ramification:  Note that in the second case, where the anonymous
   object is eliminated but the new value is not created directly
   in the target object, Adjust must be called directly on the target
   object as the last step of the assignment, since some of the
   subcomponents may be self-referential or otherwise position-
   dependent. This Adjust can be eliminated only by using one
   of the following permissions.

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007   12:38 AM

> I still don't agree.  The last sentence of 7.6(21.b/2)
> is referring to an assignment statement based on
> my reading.  7.6(21/2) talks about two things.  One
> is build-in-place when the RHS is an aggregate or
> function call.  The other is about an assignment
> statement where the RHS is non-overlapping, or
> the assignment is done component-at-a-time (carefully).
> I believe the last sentence of 7.6(21.b/2) is referring
> to this last part of 7.6(21/2), which is specifically
> talking about assignment statements.  The whole point
> of the last sentence of 7.6(21.b/2) is that you cannot
> eliminate the Adjust, even if you eliminate the anonymous
> intermediate object.  On the other hand, it is no
> problem to eliminate the Adjust when doing build-in-place
> where the RHS is an aggregate, and in fact it would
> be wrong to do an Adjust for any build-in-place
> assignment from an aggregate.

Why do you never, even comment on 7.6(21.a)? What possible value adjustment
is there in a build-in-place initialization by an aggregate???

Anyway, I can't believe that you are telling me, the author of the sentence
in question what it means. I *know* what it means; maybe what I intended
isn't right, but I deleted the "assignment_statement" from 7.6(21.b/2) on
purpose because this (I think) covers more than just assignment statements.
It applies any time bits of the entire cbject are copied as part of an
assignment operation, no matter what permissions are applied -- as long as
there still is an overall bit copy of the whole object (not just individual
components).

Now I see you are trying to tie it solely to 7.6(21/2), but I often try to
make generally useful statements: there is always an Adjust.

...
> For what it is worth, I find the *first* sentence of 7.6(21.b/2)
> to be curious, as it seems to be repeating the content of
> the first sentence of 7.6(21/2), and I think may be an
> unintentional remnant, and should be deleted.  Otherwise,
> someone needs to explain what "function call" it is
> referring to, if not to the one already mentioned in
> the first part of 7.6(21/2).

I put it there to set the stage for the rest of it. If it just followed a
paragraph about aggregates, the reader would reasonably think that we were
only talking about aggregates in 7.6(21.b/2). Feel free to suggest something
better.

> > One way to fix this would be to rewrite both paragraphs to make clear that
> > they do not apply to "build-in-place assignment to a newly created object",
> > but it's not clear to me that that would help the understandability of it.
>
> You seem to be implying that build-in-place on a preexisting object
> in an assignment statement requires an Adjust.

I don't think that there can be any such thing, at least if there is a
non-trivial Adjust. Otherwise, the model of 0 or 1 Initialize followed by
(Finalize/Adjust) followed by Finalize no longer works (you have objects
that are potentially Initialized multiple times).

> I don't understand
> that.  I think build-in-place eliminates the need for Adjust,
> both when creating a new object and when assigning to a
> preexisting object.  If there is no separate object that is going to
> be finalized after the adjust, then we don't want to do the adjust.

I don't see how you can "build-in-place" self-referencing pointers properly.
(Especially now that we know return objects aren't aliased; you can't even
write such a thing.) If you can prove that they don't exist, you can remove
the Adjust, but only then.

> One challenge is that I don't believe it is really feasible
> to do build-in-place for an assignment *statement* when the RHS is
> a function call, since you clearly need to evaluate the
> RHS before finalizing the LHS, but you must finalize the LHS
> before changing it.  So build-in-place for an assignment *statement*
> really only works if you can evaluate all of the subcomponents
> of the aggregate *without* storing them in the target object,
> then finalize the target object, and then (with aborts deferred)
> assign each of the subcomponents into the LHS.  I believe
> you need to defer aborts since you don't want a Finalize
> to be applied to the LHS when is in the middle of being
> overwritten.

Exactly; it's impractical, if not impossible (I think it is impossible).

> But in any case, you don't want to call Adjust
> if you build-in-place.  Adjust really only makes sense if you
> are copying the bits of a fully-formed object into another
> location.  I believe that is what 7.6(17.1/2) is saying.  Even though
> the requirement to build-in-place only exists for assignments
> which are *not* part of an assignment statement, I believe the
> *meaning* of build-in-place and the requirement to *omit* the
> Adjust is provided by 7.6(17.1/2), and then applies to the
> use of the term in 7.6(21/2).

But 7.6(17.1/2 explicitly excludes assignment_statement; surely it doesn't
apply to them.

> It would be weird if you would have to use
> slightly different aggregates depending on
> whether you were assigning to a newly created object versus
> a pre-existing object.

You do, because you have to do *assignment* differently for each. I can't
imagine how build-in-place would suddenly change that dynamic. One obvious
requirement is to allocate the memory for sub-components (which only happens
with a new object).

What the user writes may be the same, but what the compiler generates is
quite different for the two cases. Build-in-place is impractical in general
for non-limited types (of course it can be used on types with no controlled
or discriminant-dependent components).

...
> I am coming around to thinking that the AARM notes following
> 7.6(21/2) are pretty badly broken.

Apparently because the model I have of Finalization isn't the same as yours.
We're going to need to reconcile that...

At least you decided to mention 7.6(21.a) finally.

> I would recommend
> we make them simpler and clearer, perhaps as follows:
>
> Replace 7.6(21.a & b) with:
>
>    Ramification:  Note that in the second case,

What second case? That's way too vague (I don't see any obvious "second
case" in 7.6(21/2)).

>    ... where the anonymous
>    object is eliminated but the new value is not created directly
>    in the target object, Adjust must be called directly on the target
>    object as the last step of the assignment, since some of the
>    subcomponents may be self-referential or otherwise position-
>    dependent. This Adjust can be eliminated only by using one
>    of the following permissions.

That's OK and I suppose we can agree on this in the sense that it is very
limited in scope. (And it mainly is intended to tell implementers not to
make the optimization that the early Intermetrics compilers did.)

I do think that you'll find similar problems in other notes in the manual. I
don't think we think about build-in-place ever when thinking about
assignment, and it really is not an assignment. But one problem at a time...

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Friday, August 3, 2007   10:10 PM

AARM "To Be Honest" notes should be added to 6.6(2) and possibly 6.4(3)
to make it clear that "function_call" includes infix operator calls
when it is used in RM rules other than syntax definitions. (There are
at least 7 rules and many AARM notes which use "function_call" this way.)
See AC-00143 for a full discussion.

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Wednesday, September 5, 2007   11:38 PM

I was fixing 7.6(16) as we discussed before I left on my ill-fated vacation, and I got
to reading 7.6(16.b):

Reason: The verbiage in the Initialize rule about access discriminants constrained
by per-object expressions is not necessary here, since such types are limited, and
therefore are never adjusted.

["here" being the definition of "adjustment".]

This looks like it is no longer true, as we surely can have access discriminants
of nonlimited types these days.

The "verbiage" in question gives a required order for operations. Do we need such an order?
I don't think so, because an Adjust can't change the discriminant values of an object
(only the assignment of the bits can do that). So I think that the reason above should
say that and not depend on limited types.

But if I forgot some case where an ordering is required, then we probably need an AI.
Any idea if it is needed and if so, what it should say??

****************************************************************

From: Tucker Taft
Sent: Thursday, September 6, 2007   2:13 AM

You can't give defaults to access discriminants
in a non-limited type (3.7(10/2)).  This means access
discriminants never change after creation, and
in particular can't be changed in an Adjust.

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Thursday, September 6, 2007  9:45 PM

Humm, I think we intended that, but I don't think it is actually true in
*every* case. The rule about defaults does not apply to discriminants that
have a named access type, so I think you could have a changeable per-object
access discriminant. Making my best Steve Baird impression, consider the following:

    type Comp_Type (CD : access Integer) is record
        ...
    end record;

    type Acc_Int is access all Integer;

    One : constant aliased Integer := 1;
    Two : constant aliased Integer := 2;

    type Obj_Type (D : Acc_Int := One'access) is record
        Comp : Comp_Type (D);
    end record;

    Obj  : Obj_Type;
    Obj2 : Obj_Type (Two'access);

    Obj := Obj2; -- Seems to change the discriminant of Comp.

The discriminant D of Obj_Type is not an access discriminant, so 3.7(10/2) does
not apply and it can have a default. D then is then used as a per-object constraint
for Comp. When the assignment happens, D goes from One'access to Two'access, and
surely the discriminant of Comp does too.

This construct seems to not cause the problems that we fixed by dropping the
discriminant default, because the accessibility check that was needed on the assignment
is going to be done by the conversion to the named type of the outer discriminant.
Consider:

    procedure Fooey is
       Three : constant aliased Integer := 3;
       Obj3 : Obj_Type (Three'access); -- Error: Accessibility check fails.
    begin
       Obj := Obj3; -- Which is good 'cause we sure wouldn't want to allow this.
    end Fooey;

The net seems to be that you can change an access discriminant in very restricted
circumstances, as there is no reason to disallow it.

So the question remains: does this matter for Adjust? Initialize specifies that
per-object constrained components are done last. But I can't think of a way where
it might matter where they are done for adjustment, because an Adjust of a component
cannot change the discriminant of the per-object constrained component; only the
outer assignment can do that. And there is a requirement that inner (component)
Adjusts be done first, so a surrounding one that changed such a discriminant would
necessarily happen after any component Adjusts were completed, eliminating any issue.

So 7.6(16.b) should just be fixed.

****************************************************************

From: Tucker Taft
Sent: Friday, September 7, 2007  7:23 AM

My head hurts... ;-)

Interesting example.  It is generally true that
by changing the discriminant of an object in
a whole-object assignment you can do all kinds
of violence to its components, including having
them disappear or appear (if the component is
in a discriminant-dependent variant), get
shorter or longer, etc.  I guess we need to
add that you can change the value of an access
discriminant of a component as another kind
of violence.

I'm pretty sure we *did* include the case of an
access discriminant initialized from an enclosing
discriminant when we analyzed the safety of
allowing access discriminants on nonlimited
types.  On the other hand, I don't remember
considering this particular nastiness, and I
am comforted that you see no accessibility
holes opening as part of the enclosing assignment.

In some ways, when doing a whole-object assignment that
changes discriminants, one might best view it as
destroying one object and creating a new one.
And in fact, since Finalize is applied to the
left hand side, and then it is completely overwritten
followed by an Adjust, it closely resembles the
process of destruction and recreation.  On the
other hand, renames of components and access-values
designating components are permitted to survive
across these "mutating" assignments so long as the
components aren't "discriminant dependent."  Any
component whose access discriminant comes from
an enclosing discriminant is clearly discriminant
dependent, so we that means we *can* think of the
component as disappearing and then reappearing
with a new discriminant value after the assignment.

I suppose if it is a subcomponent but not a direct
component, then it is possible that the Adjust
might involve another whole-object assignment to
an enclosing component.  E.g.

    procedure Adjust(X : in out Outer_Rec) is
    begin
         X.Go_Between := Massage(X.Go_Between);
           -- Presume our subcomponent of interest is
           -- inside "Go_Between" and has an access discrim
           -- passed down from the "Go_Between" component
           -- This could change its discriminant again.
    end Adjust;

Note that it would be quite unwise if Outer_Rec's Adjust
involved a whole-object assignment to X itself; e.g.:

     X := Massage_Outer_Rec(X);

as this would trigger an infinitely recursive call on
Outer_Rec's Adjust.

I've reached the point of blathering... ;-)

In any case, thanks for doing the analysis of this
nasty case.

****************************************************************

!topic AARM refers to return-by-reference types
!reference AARM 6.2(11.a)
!from Adam Beneschan 07-10-29
!discussion

Small nit: AARM 6.2(11.a) contains a couple of references to
return-by-reference types, which don't exist any more.  The paragraph
should probably be rewritten.

****************************************************************

!topic universal_access not in index
!reference RM05 index
!from Adam Beneschan 07-11-06
!discussion

A very minor issue: In the index (at least the one available at
http://www.adaic.org/standards/05aarm/html/AA-0-5.html), there are
entries for universal_integer, universal_real, and universal_fixed,
but not universal_access.  It seems that it should be there for
consistency/completeness.

****************************************************************

From the minutes of the 33rd ARG meeting:

In unrelated news, Tucker says that "needs finalization" needs
more index entries. Specifically, there should be an index entry
for each standard type defined to "need finalization".

****************************************************************

!topic Missed '|' in formal_object_declaration syntax
!reference Ada 2005 RM 12.4(2/2)
!from Maxim Reznik 07-12-27
!keywords formal_object_declaration
!discussion
Alternative separator '|' is missed in syntax rule for
formal_object_declaration. Should be:

formal_object_declaration ::=
    defining_identifier_list : mode [null_exclusion] subtype_mark [:=
default_expression];
  | defining_identifier_list : mode access_definition [:= default_expression];

[Editor's note: This error occurs only in the Ada Europe consolidated RM; it
is correct in the Amendment document, which is the official standard. Thus,
this is recorded here.]

****************************************************************

From: John Barnes
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007  12:10 PM

It's like it in Annex P as well.

(But my book is OK).

Happy New Year

****************************************************************

From: Tucker Taft
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008   3:29 PM

In an AARM annotation (13.13.1(9.b/2), we indicate that
it is unwise to use Stream_Element_Offset'First
as the low bound for the Item passed to
a stream Read procedure, because you will
get a Constraint_Error if the stream is empty.
We then go on to say that a better choice of
lower bound is 1.  But earlier we indicate that
either 0 or 1 makes sense, and this last bit of
advice will probably make the reader think that
Stream_Element_Offset'First = 0, when in fact
it is probably -Stream_Element_Offset'Last-1.

Here is my suggested minor presentation fix:

   This implies that the Stream_Element_Array passed
   to these subprograms should not have a lower bound
   of Stream_Element_Offset'First, because then a read
   of 0 elements would always raise Constraint_Error.
   A better choice of lower bound is {0 or} 1.

I am suggesting this fix because I read the original
wording several times, and then stared at the
Streams package, and had to work hard to assure
myself that Stream_Element_Offset'First was not
zero.  If it had said "0 or 1" to begin with,
I would have understood it immediately.

****************************************************************

From: Adam Beneschan
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008  12:37 PM

The term "mentioned" has a specific definition in 10.2.1(6), but it is
not in the correct place in index at:

  http://www.adaic.org/standards/05aarm/html/AA-0-5.html

It looks like it's supposed to be there but somehow got stuck under T: 

  Term=[mentioned],Sec=[in a with_clause]   10.1.2(6/2)

****************************************************************

!topic universal_access is not in the index
!reference 3.4.1(6)
!from Adam Beneschan 08-06-05
!discussion

Presentation issue: 3.4.1(6) says, "Universal types are defined for (and
belong to) the integer, real, and fixed point, and access classes, and
are referred to in this standard as respectively, universal_integer,
universal_real, universal_fixed, and universal_access.

universal_integer, universal_real, and universal_fixed are all listed
in the index, but universal_access is not.  This is a problem, since
I was planning to look in the RM to find out what the semantic
ramifications of "universal_access" are, but the index doesn't tell me
where any discussions of this might be.

Specifically, I'd hope that the index entry for universal_access
(assuming it does get added) should refer to 4.5.2(7.2) and/or 4.5.2(9.1).

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008  12:11 AM

!topic universal_access is not in the index ...

Is this the dept. of redundancy department?? Some guy by the name of
Adam Beneschan sent the following to this very list on November 6th, 2007:

!topic universal_access not in index
!reference RM05 index
!from Adam Beneschan 07-11-06
!discussion

A very minor issue: In the index (at least the one available at
http://www.adaic.org/standards/05aarm/html/AA-0-5.html), there are entries
for universal_integer, universal_real, and universal_fixed, but not
universal_access.  It seems that it should be there for consistency/completeness.

---

Let me make a couple of other points:

The index is not technically part of the standard. So suggestions for the
index are handled like AARM comments, and attached to AI05-0005-1. Moreover,
I generally make those to the working version of the Standard immediately
(like all AARM comments). So this was all handled back in November. Looking all
of this up has wasted quite a bit of time, unfortunately.

> Specifically, I'd hope that the index entry for universal_access 
> (assuming it does get added)
> should refer to 4.5.2(7.2) and/or 4.5.2(9.1).

That would be inconsistent with the rest of the standard, for which we only
index definitions, not uses. If we were to start indexing uses, there are many,
many places where such indexes would be valuable (and that would imply a
*lot* of work). For instance, I would like to see a list of all of the places
where predefined routines raise (specific) exceptions (we do index
language-defined checks). Most importantly, we'd want "definition" index entries
to look different somehow than "use" index entries, which implies new commands
and formatting for the formatting tool. A very slippery slope.

****************************************************************

From: Adam Beneschan
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008  11:06 AM

> !topic universal_access is not in the index ...
> 
> Is this the dept. of redundancy department?? 

Yes, and yes.  :-)


> Some guy by the name of Adam
> Beneschan sent the following to this very list on November 6th, 2007:
> 
> !topic universal_access not in index
> !reference RM05 index
> !from Adam Beneschan 07-11-06
> !discussion
> 
> A very minor issue: In the index (at least the one available at 
> http://www.adaic.org/standards/05aarm/html/AA-0-5.html), there are 
> entries for universal_integer, universal_real, and universal_fixed, 
> but not universal_access.  It seems that it should be there for 
> consistency/completeness.

Yep.  I had completely forgotten that I had sent this earlier.  
 

> Let me make a couple of other points:
> 
> The index is not technically part of the standard. So suggestions for 
> the index are handled like AARM comments, and attached to AI05-0005-1.

I wasn't aware of that.  I did look at the AI05's to see if this issue
had been submitted already, whether by people with names identical to mine
or not, but it didn't occur to me to look at this particular one since nothing
about the title made it seem relevant.  Thanks for the info---I'll try to
remember this next time.


> Moreover,
> I generally make those to the working version of the Standard 
> immediately (like all AARM comments). So this was all handled back in 
> November. Looking all of this up has wasted quite a bit of time, unfortunately.

The version I use (noted above) doesn't have this change.  Is the working
version of the Standard available online?  If so, I can check that first to
help make sure I don't submit more redundant comments.

My apologies for making you look this up unnecessarily.

****************************************************************

From: Randy Brukardt
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008  12:55 PM

> The version I use (noted above) doesn't have this change.  Is the 
> working version of the Standard available online?  If so, I can check 
> that first to help make sure I don't submit more redundant comments.

The super secret working version is not available to the public. The reason
is that WG 9 has not decided on any plan for future work on the Ada standard,
and for me and/or the ARG to make a working document available makes it
appear that they have. (The changes are identified as belonging to
"Corrigendum 2", a document that does not exist and may never exist.) It
would be nice to let you have access to it (it is useful for the very reason
that you note -- there are already too many approved AI05s to remember them
all), but my hands are tied.

****************************************************************

!topic Clarification requested on Wide_Bounded_IO definition
!reference A.11(4), A.10.11(3)
!from Adam Beneschan 08-06-11
!discussion

A.11(4) says, when describing how to create the definition of Wide_Bounded_IO
in terms of the Bounded_IO definition:

   any occurrence of package Bounded is replaced by Wide_Bounded.

Does this refer only to the "Bounded" package defined as a child of Ada.Strings,
or does it also refer to the generic formal package that is a parameter
of the generic Ada.Text_IO.Bounded_IO?  I suspect the answer is that it refers
to both, but I think it's not 100% clear, and a clarification one way or the other
would be useful.

****************************************************************

Editor's note (July 11, 2008): All of the items above this
marker have been included in the working version of the AARM.

****************************************************************

From: Robert A. Duff
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007   3:43 PM

I just got my "author's copies" of the Ada RM published by Springer.  Thank
you, Randy.  And my name, and several others, appear prominently on the cover.
Cool.

However, I have a concern:  The name "Jean Ichbiah" appears nowhere, as far as I
can tell, in the RM nor AARM.  This seems like an outrageous lack of proper
attribution.  Is there some way to correct it, at this late date?

What about the members of JDI's team?  The "Acknowledgments" sections of this
document commemerate many people -- but the pre-95 folks are left out.

****************************************************************

From: Tucker Taft
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007   4:55 PM

I don't remember what process was used to produce the "front
material" of the Ada 95 standard.  But if you look at it
in comparison to the Ada 83 "green book," the Ada 83
"foreword" which was effectively the acknowledgments
was not officially part of the standard (or at least that
is what it says at the bottom of the page).  In the Ada 95
standard, the "foreword" is some boilerplate provided by
ISO, and makes no acknowledgments to authors.  There is
an "acknowledgments" page in the Ada 95 standard, but since
there was no direct equivalent in the Ada 83 standard, I
suspect it was developed from scratch, and I think we presumed
it was obvious that this was an acknowledgment about the
revision process, not about the original standard.

It does seem a bit unfortunate that there is no acknowledgment
to the original Ada language team, but I certainly don't
feel anyone should blame Randy for the current situation.
If anyone goofed, it was the Ada 9X team.

****************************************************************

From: Pascal Leroy
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007   3:41 AM

> What about the members of JDI's team?  The "Acknowledgments" 
> sections of this document commemerate many people -- but the 
> pre-95 folks are left out.

I definitely agree.  I actually find it quite outrageous that the original
team is not mentioned (I am not blaming anyone, I'm sure it was not on
purpose, but it's certainly unfair).

What do we do about this?  We are certainly not going to reprint the paper
copies.  I would also object to modifying the PDF and HTML files, since it
is essential that they remain as close as possible to the printed version.
We took extra steps (e.g., publishing SHA-1 signatures) to ensure that
people would not be confused about which version is the "right" one.  We
don't want to start changing those files at the drop of a hat.

My view is that if you make a mistake, the best you can do is to own up to
it.  My suggestion would be add on the official page for the Ada 05 RM
(www.adaic.org/standards/ada05.html) a blurb like:

"The development of Ada 95 and Ada 2005 would of course have been
impossible without the strong foundation provided by Ada 83.  As part of
the numerous rounds of edits on the Reference Manual, the acknowledgments
regarding the design team for the original language were unfortunately
lost.  We apologize for this error.  The acknowledgment section for the
Ada 83 language can be found <here>."

Where the last word would hyperlink to a page containing the text of the
acknowledgment section of RM 83.

[Editor's note: A short acknowledgement based on the Ada 83 Foreword should
be added in front of the Ada 95 acknowledgement. This is recorded here as
this is text which does not appear in the actual Standard, so it shouldn't
be mentioned in a real AI.]

****************************************************************


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